and you SHOULD feel bad
Ladies, just because you meet someone that’s a lesbian or bisexual, it does not mean they want to fuck you and are going to fall in love with you. Lesbians and bisexuals aren’t whores who would fuck any female. And guys, calm down, just because he’s a homosexual does not mean he wants to fuck you up the ass, so stop being a pussy and be a man and talk to the guy, treat him like a human being, he deserves it.
You had me until you hit the: “stop being a pussy and be a man” part. :/
Was there really a need for that shit?
Hey straight guys, don’t be like a weak woman’s vagina. Be a man and tolerate people. Except for women and their nasty pussies, which you don’t want to be.
Excuse me while I ruin something good by nitpicking the shit out of it.
Oops. Sorry, I let my stupid feminism get in the way of that misogynistic crap.
“Misogynist crap” is referring to the slang phrase being used? The thing that isn’t actually used literally? You want every thing that means something good to be purely literal and formal?
So, you think calling someone a pussy is just a “slang phrase” and good?
In other words you don’t understand why it’s misogynistic to insult a MAN by calling him a FEMALE body part.
You might want to research what misogyny is, and slut-shaming.
Or, perhaps you already know and don’t care.
Do you think it’s okay to use “gay,” “homo,” or “fag” as slang??? If not why is that wrong, but it’s okay to call people “pussy,” “bitch,” “slut,” etc? Demeaning women is just as wrong as demeaning any other group.
First off as a sex positive person I agree with the message of the original post bar the “man up” and “pussy” thing. What amazes me however is how a term used to shame and attack men for not conforming to societies standards of masculinity is being labeled as misogynistic.
The word pussy in this context does not refer to female genitalia it is believed to come from an abbreviation of pusillanimous meaning to show a lack of courage or determination.
Even if it did come from the female genitalia that isn’t implying that there is something wrong with femininity necessarily, it would be referring to something which lacks masculinity. At a push you could call that insulting to both genders but it would still be primarily misandrist as it’s a term used to shame men in to either silence about their problems or get them to do something which puts them at personal risk.
Monster solar flare 100,000s km high travelling over 100km per second. Video sped up 360 times.
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And? You could say the same thing about white people, they’re not an oppressed minority therefore racism towards them is fine or in some way less wrong?
Cis people aren’t an oppressed minority, and no one is practicing intolerance of cis people. MEANWHILE, trans people ARE an oppressed minority, and systemic intolerance and prejudice against trans people can be seen in many, varied forms across the length and breadth of society. NO one is saying cis people are unworthy or unacceptable as sexual partners due to the fact that they ARE CIS. LOTS of people are saying trans people are unacceptable as sexual partners due to the fact that they ARE TRANS.
I personally would have no problem sleeping with a transwoman, I’ve even given my girlfriend permission to sleep trans women as well as cis women. I’m just sticking up for other people’s rights to sleep with or not sleep with who ever they want for whatever reason or even no reason at all.
Did you literally specify to your girlfriend that she was free to sleep with trans women as well as cis women? Why in particular would you specify trans women as a separate group from cis women? Can you not see how differentiating cis women from trans women as two separate categories carries with it an undercurrent of transphobia, seeing as both groups are WOMEN? You’re a woman whether you’re cis or trans. The only reason people MAKE a differentiation is because of prejudice against people who happen to be trans.
As TJ said perhaps somebody would chose not to have sex with a trans person because they would like to enter a relationship with the possibility of having biological children, I don’t think that this is exactly rare for men.
No one, however, would say “I am not at all attracted to barren women, that’s just my personal preference”. There are multiple reasons why a cis woman would not be able to have a child. And, if these women never informed their partners of their condition, their partners would never know that their attempts at having a child would be fruitless. But no one is grouping up these women and saying “I could never be attracted to these women, full stop”. But they ARE doing that to trans women. Why is that?
Perhaps they aren’t experts in the medical procedure and wouldn’t have sex with a trans person out of fear of offending them if their genitalia isn’t to their liking. They may be ignorant but this isn’t bigoted.
Prehaps they don’t want to cause conflict in their family by dating a trans person. A woman may refuse to date me because I’m an atheist due to family reasons, this may be cowardly that wouldn’t make her a bigot.
That IS a bigoted situation. You’re basing your partner not on your own personal attraction, but the prejudices of others. How is that not a situation that exists out of bigotry? “I would rather appease bigots than be true to my own desires” is evidence of the inherent intolerance in society. That situation can only exist because society deems trans people as abhorrent, and a person who accepts that status quo is implicit in it. A lot of people would look at that situation and rid themselves of their bigoted family, not the person they love.
“You find me a _single_ example of someone who solely dates trans people without fetishizing trans people and I’ll give you my take on them.”
So if I found such people you would judge them on a case by case basis but not the other way around? What is your definition of fetishizing and why is it intrinsically wrong?
I do judge people on a case-by-case basis. The difference is, I judge EVERYONE on a case-by-case basis. The whole point of bigotry is that people are prepared to write off, or denigrate, an entire group of people based on one aspect of their identity. And fetishising trans people is objectifying trans people. It’s seeing them as ‘trans’ instead of ‘people’.
Seriously, do you not get that? If a trans woman never told you she was trans, you could very well be attracted to her, and you might never realize she was trans. The KNOWLEDGE of someone being trans is enough to destroy your attraction to them. If you WEREN’T transphobic, such a revelation wouldn’t even matter to you. It’s not a personal preference when you would be perfectly happy to involve yourself in a relationship with a woman, unless you ever found out she was trans. That’s like being perfectly happy with a relationship with a woman until you find out she suffers from epilepsy, or has survived ovarian cancer, or is colorblind. The fact that you are attracted to them right up to the point where they reveal their affliction to you PROVES that it’s not personal preference calling the shots here. It’s intolerance, plain and simple.
Whether cis people are the victims of discrimination is completely irrelevant. If you take a different view towards people who feel attraction only to people they believe are trans then this is a double standard on your part. What about a trans person who only dates other trans people?
Most of the previous posts I’ve been talking about seeing a person as a viable sexual partner rather than attraction itself, I think I made a reasonable case for why somebody isn’t necessarily transphobic for choosing not to enter a sexual relationship so for the rest of this I will be focusing on attraction itself.
My problem is that calling somebody bigoted for not having attraction or losing attraction towards somebody when bigotry isn’t reason they don’t feel attraction is potentially harmful. Supposing somebody doesn’t feel attraction to black women and are made to believe that this MUST be due to internalized racism if anything this could cause them to date somebody who they don’t feel attraction to so they can prove to themselves that they aren’t racist (ironically “fetishizing them”) they won’t be true to their own feelings, they won’t be honest to the girl in question, it’s likely to not last long and due to the lack of attraction they’d be more likely to cheat.
I know the analogy is far from perfect but hopefully it illiterates how your viewpoint is potentially damaging if you’re wrong.
Attraction is for the most part subconscious, it’s not a choice (if it was I certainly wouldn’t chose to be straight), it’s not always rational and it’s beyond our control. Yes bigotry may be the primary factor in why somebody doesn’t feel attraction, in the case of somebody only feeling attraction towards people they believe are cis it may even be the case for the majority but to say that this is ALWAYS the case I think is wrong. How can you claim to know what is going on deep inside somebody’s subconscious when they don’t have a clue themselves most of the time?
Attraction can come or go in an instance. Finding out a woman is baron could trigger attraction loss in some people as could finding out that they have been concealing a large part of their past.
As for my girlfriend she brought it up because she wanted to know how I felt about it.
Ummmm… It’s a torture device. Just saying. O.o
Jesus and the Easter bunny are the same person? It all makes sense again! Praise bunny Jesus!
“Shaming someone for expressing transphobic views is equivalent to slut-shaming? Tell me more…”
Not wanting to have sex with somebody who is trans does not make somebody transphobic just as not wanting to have sex with somebody of the same gender isn’t homophobic. I can think of a number of legitimate reasons why somebody might make the decision not to have sex with a trans person or a cis person for that mater but at the end of the day it is THEIR choice or their sexual orientation.
If you’re a bigot, and you think that you can’t possibly be attracted to trans women, and you meet a woman and things progress and you get intimate with her… are you attracted to her? Yes. Is she a trans woman? How would you know unless she told you?
Pretending that this is the same as a hetero guy getting intimate with a gay guy is disingenuous and patently ridiculous. There is a very real possibility that you could have a sexual relationship with a trans woman and never be aware of her trans status if she didn’t inform you of it. You’d be none the wiser. Seriously, use the ‘deception’ argument. The rage is always because someone believes that a trans person is cis until they are informed otherwise. But they were still attracted before they knew! Talking about people not being attracted to trans people because of their ‘sexual orientation’ is so laughably inaccurate. You only have to look at murderers who use the ‘trans panic’ defense in order to justify killing a sexual partner who revealed themselves to be trans. The evidence is plain to see. People who are transphobic have NO issues with their attraction to trans people; the issue is entirely in their reaction to having that trans status revealed to them.
“can you maybe suggest some that might actually happen? I mean, seriously, chief, do you think that there’s a person on this planet who assumes all people are trans until proven otherwise?”
How many logical fallacies do you want to throw my way today? Another strawman and a red herring. I never said their was anyone on the planet who assumes that ALL people are trans until proven otherwise but their are certainly situations where they could wrongfully assume somebody is trans.
1. The person might have been talking about trans issues which lead the person to believe they were trans.
2. They might have a slightly masculine face/figure
3. They could be with a group of trans people.
Whether the hypothetical is realistic is besides the point though, I ask again would the person who didn’t want to have sex with a cis person necessarily by cisphobic?
The realism of the scenario is INCREDIBLY important. Cis people aren’t the targets of direct and indirect bigotry from society. Cis people aren’t an oppressed minority denied basic human rights and protection under law. It is entirely irrelevant to propose some farcical scenario where some hypothetical trans-only person only wants to sleep with trans people and would be disgusted to learn that he slept with a cis person. Not only is such a scenario completely ridiculous to the point that it literally doesn’t exist beyond the realm of creepers who objectify people specifically for their trans status (and for someone tossing around the ‘strawman’ bullshit, it’s nice to see some blatant hypocrisy in your argument), but it’s indicative of a wider problem; that you consider the divide between cis people and trans people to be so fundamentally integral to sexuality that there is actually an inherent difference that makes a trans person _utterly unlike_ a cis person. As if we’re not all just people. Your perception of trans people as separate and ‘other’ indicates your inherent transphobia. You are part of the problem.
Would you dump somebody if they told you they only dated trans people? Would you call them a biggot?
Answer Honestly!
If you answered no then maybe you need to reevaluate your position and conciser the possibility that your reasoning was emotionally driven by you finding it harder to get laid than you would if you weren’t born with a Y chromosome.
The honest answer to your query is “no such person exists”. You find me a _single_ example of someone who solely dates trans people without fetishizing trans people and I’ll give you my take on them.
“The realism of the scenario is INCREDIBLY important. Cis people aren’t the targets of direct and indirect bigotry from society. Cis people aren’t an oppressed minority denied basic human rights and protection under law.”
And? You could say the same thing about white people, they’re not an oppressed minority therefore racism towards them is fine or in some way less wrong?
I personally would have no problem sleeping with a transwoman, I’ve even given my girlfriend permission to sleep trans women as well as cis women. I’m just sticking up for other people’s rights to sleep with or not sleep with who ever they want for whatever reason or even no reason at all.
As TJ said perhaps somebody would chose not to have sex with a trans person because they would like to enter a relationship with the possibility of having biological children, I don’t think that this is exactly rare for men.
Perhaps they aren’t experts in the medical procedure and wouldn’t have sex with a trans person out of fear of offending them if their genitalia isn’t to their liking. They may be ignorant but this isn’t bigoted.
Prehaps they don’t want to cause conflict in their family by dating a trans person. A woman may refuse to date me because I’m an atheist due to family reasons, this may be cowardly that wouldn’t make her a bigot.
“You find me a _single_ example of someone who solely dates trans people without fetishizing trans people and I’ll give you my take on them.”
So if I found such people you would judge them on a case by case basis but not the other way around? What is your definition of fetishizing and why is it intrinsically wrong?
As I’ve talked about before, there really isn’t any universal or consistent outward trait common to all trans women. Logically, one can’t possibly experience a basic sexual attraction to cis women but not trans women, at least not while claiming that supposed lack of attraction has anything to do with trans women and trans bodies. It’s about how you perceive trans women. What you’re “not attracted to” is women you KNOW are trans, the IDEA of trans women, the CONCEPT. Which is inherently tied into cultural perceptions. You’d have the same reaction to a cis woman claiming to be trans as you would to an actual trans woman. It’s about your perceptions, not our bodies.
That’s retarded and shallow. You’re basically making the statement that it’s not okay to choose sexual partners based on anything other than appearance, and that our sexuality should conform to your social views.
I personally would not be bothered by the prospect of sleeping with a trans female, but if I were, it would be a perfectly acceptable way to feel, depending on the reasoning.
There are people who have sex only for the sake of procreation, for instance. Gender reassignment surgery is very effective, but it’s not yet reached the point where a trans female can get pregnant. So, if I were a religious type who believed sex was solely for procreation, that would be a reason to not have sex with a trans woman that has nothing to do with her being born biologically male.
If that example is too obscure, then follow this line of argument: I’m not particularly sexually attracted to Asian people, on average. Does that make me racist? No. I have no problems with Asian people, but for reasons beyond my control, I am not aroused by them as much as I am by other races (though their are obvious exceptions to this). Would you call me a racist for this? Then is a gay man with no sexual interest in the female figure a sexist?
“But those are physical characteristics,” you may protest, “whereas many trans females are physically indiscernible from cis females.” Okay. So are you saying that sexual attraction is purely physical? Are you saying that a person’s feelings and experiences are irrelevant to attraction? There are people who I’ve been physically attracted to, then talked to them and realized that I just don’t feel any connection to them at all. Why? Maybe I didn’t like their sense of humor. Does that mean I’m against them as people? That I’m a bigot who hates all people with that particular sense of humor? No. It’s just something that I find to be a turn-off.
A guy who has difficulty with the notion that the woman he’s with was born with a penis is not necessarily transphobic. You trying to shame guys who feel that way into thinking that they must be horrible bigots is contemptible. Human sexuality is a complex, multi-faceted thing. Expecting it to conform to social niceties is stupid. Treating it as though it should reflect a person’s carefully thought-out positions is also stupid.
I think that there is enough real bigotry in the world. You don’t need to go seeing bigotry where none exists.
The bigotry would be obvious if you gave it some credible thought.
A particularly transphobic argument used again and again is the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ a potential partner by revealing her trans status. This hypothetical scenario begins with the initial assumption that the trans woman in question is in a situation where she is being considered as a sexual partner by the other participant in this scenario. If she’s being considered as a sexual partner prior to revealing her status as trans, then logically she is regarded as attractive enough to pursue an intimate relationship with. It is only after she reveals her trans status that this attraction is withdrawn. People who argue that they aren’t attracted to trans people don’t seem to recognize the conditional privilege inherent in this chain of events; that prior to knowing of someone’s trans status, they may very well be attracted to a trans person, simply because they assume the potential partner to be cis. If the revelation that the person in front of you is trans instantly revokes that attraction, it’s blatantly obvious that an element of intolerance towards transsexual people exists.
Arguing that you simply aren’t attracted to people of one race or another isn’t applicable, because the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ their partner relies on the presumption of that partner being attracted to them to begin with. If you’re attracted to someone before knowing of their trans status, and not attracted to them after knowing of their trans status, clearly _SOMETHING_ about their trans status is causing a negative reaction. And that’s transphobic.
What if somebody has a preference for trans women and then decides they don’t want to sleep with a woman after they reveal their cis status? Does that make them cisphobic?
What if a man decides they don’t want to pursue a relationship with a woman after she reviles that she wants to work whilst the man stays at home? Does that mean they have white male cis hetro privilege and they’re sexist patriarchy supporters?
I have a very wide sexual preference but I stand up for those with more narrow tastes.
“If you don’t find black women attractive you’re racist.”
“If you don’t like women with small/big breasts or blonde/brown hair you’re shallow!”
“How do you know you’re gay if you’ve never slept with a woman?”
“If you don’t try anal sex you’re frigid.”
“If you won’t try a finger up the bum you’re not confident in you’re sexuality”
I hate bullshit like this! Shaming somebody for not engaging in a sexual act or entering a relationship with another person for ANY reason is wrong and it’s just as bad as slut-shaming.
Shaming someone for expressing transphobic views is equivalent to slut-shaming? Tell me more…
Oh, and the next time you’re attempting to validate your point with hypothetical scenarios, can you maybe suggest some that might actually happen? I mean, seriously, chief, do you think that there’s a person on this planet who assumes all people are trans until proven otherwise?
“Shaming someone for expressing transphobic views is equivalent to slut-shaming? Tell me more…”
Not wanting to have sex with somebody who is trans does not make somebody transphobic just as not wanting to have sex with somebody of the same gender isn’t homophobic. I can think of a number of legitimate reasons why somebody might make the decision not to have sex with a trans person or a cis person for that mater but at the end of the day it is THEIR choice or their sexual orientation.
“can you maybe suggest some that might actually happen? I mean, seriously, chief, do you think that there’s a person on this planet who assumes all people are trans until proven otherwise?”
How many logical fallacies do you want to throw my way today? Another strawman and a red herring. I never said their was anyone on the planet who assumes that ALL people are trans until proven otherwise but their are certainly situations where they could wrongfully assume somebody is trans.
1. The person might have been talking about trans issues which lead the person to believe they were trans.
2. They might have a slightly masculine face/figure
3. They could be with a group of trans people.
Whether the hypothetical is realistic is besides the point though, I ask again would the person who didn’t want to have sex with a cis person necessarily by cisphobic?
Would you dump somebody if they told you they only dated trans people? Would you call them a biggot?
Answer Honestly!
If you answered no then maybe you need to reevaluate your position and conciser the possibility that your reasoning was emotionally driven by you finding it harder to get laid than you would if you weren’t born with a Y chromosome.
As I’ve talked about before, there really isn’t any universal or consistent outward trait common to all trans women. Logically, one can’t possibly experience a basic sexual attraction to cis women but not trans women, at least not while claiming that supposed lack of attraction has anything to do with trans women and trans bodies. It’s about how you perceive trans women. What you’re “not attracted to” is women you KNOW are trans, the IDEA of trans women, the CONCEPT. Which is inherently tied into cultural perceptions. You’d have the same reaction to a cis woman claiming to be trans as you would to an actual trans woman. It’s about your perceptions, not our bodies.
That’s retarded and shallow. You’re basically making the statement that it’s not okay to choose sexual partners based on anything other than appearance, and that our sexuality should conform to your social views.
I personally would not be bothered by the prospect of sleeping with a trans female, but if I were, it would be a perfectly acceptable way to feel, depending on the reasoning.
There are people who have sex only for the sake of procreation, for instance. Gender reassignment surgery is very effective, but it’s not yet reached the point where a trans female can get pregnant. So, if I were a religious type who believed sex was solely for procreation, that would be a reason to not have sex with a trans woman that has nothing to do with her being born biologically male.
If that example is too obscure, then follow this line of argument: I’m not particularly sexually attracted to Asian people, on average. Does that make me racist? No. I have no problems with Asian people, but for reasons beyond my control, I am not aroused by them as much as I am by other races (though their are obvious exceptions to this). Would you call me a racist for this? Then is a gay man with no sexual interest in the female figure a sexist?
“But those are physical characteristics,” you may protest, “whereas many trans females are physically indiscernible from cis females.” Okay. So are you saying that sexual attraction is purely physical? Are you saying that a person’s feelings and experiences are irrelevant to attraction? There are people who I’ve been physically attracted to, then talked to them and realized that I just don’t feel any connection to them at all. Why? Maybe I didn’t like their sense of humor. Does that mean I’m against them as people? That I’m a bigot who hates all people with that particular sense of humor? No. It’s just something that I find to be a turn-off.
A guy who has difficulty with the notion that the woman he’s with was born with a penis is not necessarily transphobic. You trying to shame guys who feel that way into thinking that they must be horrible bigots is contemptible. Human sexuality is a complex, multi-faceted thing. Expecting it to conform to social niceties is stupid. Treating it as though it should reflect a person’s carefully thought-out positions is also stupid.
I think that there is enough real bigotry in the world. You don’t need to go seeing bigotry where none exists.
The bigotry would be obvious if you gave it some credible thought.
A particularly transphobic argument used again and again is the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ a potential partner by revealing her trans status. This hypothetical scenario begins with the initial assumption that the trans woman in question is in a situation where she is being considered as a sexual partner by the other participant in this scenario. If she’s being considered as a sexual partner prior to revealing her status as trans, then logically she is regarded as attractive enough to pursue an intimate relationship with. It is only after she reveals her trans status that this attraction is withdrawn. People who argue that they aren’t attracted to trans people don’t seem to recognize the conditional privilege inherent in this chain of events; that prior to knowing of someone’s trans status, they may very well be attracted to a trans person, simply because they assume the potential partner to be cis. If the revelation that the person in front of you is trans instantly revokes that attraction, it’s blatantly obvious that an element of intolerance towards transsexual people exists.
Arguing that you simply aren’t attracted to people of one race or another isn’t applicable, because the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ their partner relies on the presumption of that partner being attracted to them to begin with. If you’re attracted to someone before knowing of their trans status, and not attracted to them after knowing of their trans status, clearly _SOMETHING_ about their trans status is causing a negative reaction. And that’s transphobic.
What if somebody has a preference for trans women and then decides they don’t want to sleep with a woman after they reveal their cis status? Does that make them cisphobic?
What if a man decides they don’t want to pursue a relationship with a woman after she reviles that she wants to work whilst the man stays at home? Does that mean they have white male cis hetro privilege and they’re sexist patriarchy supporters?
I have a very wide sexual preference but I stand up for those with more narrow tastes.
“If you don’t find black women attractive you’re racist.”
“If you don’t like women with small/big breasts or blonde/brown hair you’re shallow!”
“How do you know you’re gay if you’ve never slept with a woman?”
“If you don’t try anal sex you’re frigid.”
“If you won’t try a finger up the bum you’re not confident in you’re sexuality”
I hate bullshit like this! Shaming somebody for not engaging in a sexual act or entering a relationship with another person for ANY reason is wrong and it’s just as bad as slut-shaming.
